Prayer in Schools

[smurfe]

I read this story with interest. Was wondering what your thoughts on it are.

Smurfe :beer:

Texas School Board Adds Bible Class

Wed Apr 27, 9:08 AM ET

Associated Press

ODESSA, Texas - The school board in this West Texas town voted unanimously to add a Bible class to its high school curriculum.

Hundreds of people, most of them supporters of the proposal, packed the board meeting Tuesday night. More than 6,000 Odessa residents had signed a petition supporting the class.

Some residents, however, said the school board acted too quickly. Others said they feared a national constitutional fight.

Barring any hurdles, the class should be added to the curriculum in fall 2006 and taught as a history or literature course. The school board still must develop a curriculum, which board member Floy Hinson said should be open for public review.

The board had heard a presentation in March from Mike Johnson, a representative of the Greensboro, N.C.-based National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, who said that coursework designed by that organization is not about proselytizing or preaching.

But People for the American Way and the American Civil Liberties Union have criticized the council, saying its materials promote religion.

Johnson said students in the elective class would learn such things as the geography of the Middle East and the influence of the Bible on history and culture.

"How can students understand Leonardo da Vinci's 'Last Supper' or Handel's 'Messiah' if they don't understand the reference from which they came?" Johnson said. The group's Web site says its curriculum has received backing in 292 school districts in 35 states.

In Frankenmuth, Mich., a similar proposal led to a yearlong controversy before the school board voted in January not to offer such a course.

Drawn 04/27/2005 from http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&u=/ap/20050427/ap_on_re_us/bible_class&printer=1

[EMSsquirrel]

If it's an elective, that's great. Whether people like it or not, religion plays a big role in peoples' lives, and the Bible is very important to the Christian religion. I'll admit, I kinda feel left out when people talk about, "And then Jesus went here, did this, saw this dude, brought the Ten Commandments down to a courthouse in Alabama, parted the Gulf of Mexico, and wrote it all down in the New Testicle."

... As you can see... uh... I'm not well-versed in the Bible. But if I had a class in it, I would be!!!

- Greg

[Nate]

It sounds interesting, it is going to raise the bar on what is allowed and what isn't allowed in schools. I do not forsee forcing it upon people, but as an elective it sounds good.

I just wonder how many problems your going to have with each sector will be represented. Will it be Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, etc. based?

[SteelMaiden]

I think it is great. Our schools here automatically put all kids into a "Teen Living" class, unless the parent personally requests that another elective be allowed. Teen living is basically what used to be HomeEc when I went to school. I've already taught my boys how to cook, clean, do laundry, even sew simple things like sewing on a button, or mending a seam. Other choices are band (which they already take), choir (which they really shouldn't take-they inherited my lack of talent, poor boys), art (good, but not all children are artistic) and JROTC. Whoopie, what choices, huh?

[DaSharkie]

First off, the ACLU is against any Christian religion or leanings in any public building or on any public land.

Second, this course is an elective. The same course should be allowed if you have interest in the Koran or other religious material. However, the ACLU will fight it if you want to cancel the class due to lack of interest, yet will probably fight this Bible class.

If the class is not ramming a religious dogma down your throat, then there is no problem with it, but the ACLU would not ever see it that way. The Bible is a great way of teaching history. Several books involve historical accounts of the Jews and their Kings, but the historical value is lost on many.

You are also correct about having a semblance of understanding of the effect that religion has on individuals, cultures, and our overall national and world society. A public school's job is to educate and prepare kids for our modern world - a job they are failing at more and more for a variety of reasons. This course APPEARS to only be another method of education and preparing of these folks.

[mcaldwell]

Here's my take.

Whatever happened to Sunday School? That's where I went when I was a youngster to learn about my religion.

I was raised Roman Catholic, but don't practice. I still call myself "Undecided". Truth is, while I value most religion(s) as quite valuable for thier moral compass, I view the various religions as private clubs. I take the "How can one story be right and the others all wrong" approach. I don't know that I would be comfortable paying the portion of the taxes required to fund this course. If so, I would expect them to offer courses on all other major religions as well, and I know I wouldn't want to pay all those costs when the various Churches raise money to do the same thing already.

If you had one general elective "Religion" course taught as a history course, with small chunks on the history of each of the major religions, go for it. This gives the kids the working knowledge they should have, but lets them make thier own decisions regarding thier faith (or lack of it). If you just want to teach your kids one specific branch of Catholisism, or any other religion, use Sunday School, or send them to Catholic or Private school. That way you get qualified teaching (instead of a gym teacher who also gets stuck with religion), and you do it on your own dime.

Just my opinion.

[Nate]

I think it is great. Our schools here automatically put all kids into a "Teen Living" class, unless the parent personally requests that another elective be allowed. Teen living is basically what used to be HomeEc when I went to school. I've already taught my boys how to cook, clean, do laundry, even sew simple things like sewing on a button, or mending a seam. Other choices are band (which they already take), choir (which they really shouldn't take-they inherited my lack of talent, poor boys), art (good, but not all children are artistic) and JROTC. Whoopie, what choices, huh?

I would pretty ticked off if my kid had to take a class to learn how to cook, sew a button on, etc. I could, and should teach them that at home as part of being their parent. I would much rather see my child taking Spanish/German/French rather then sewing buttons and baking cakes.

My high school had a lot of vocational, sports, and computer related electives. (Including the EMT-B course.) There was something for everyone there. I managed to take two years of german, run varsity cross country and track for four years, take the EMT-B, and two computer classes during my four years there.

[celestialdaisy]

As long as it's an elective that has support, Go for it. No one is forcing the kids to take it. It's something that needs to be taught. Don't take it like I'm trying to force religion on people. I think it would be even better if it were a "religions of the world" course. It would make kids think about something different than what their used to, and to try to look at it from another point of view. We had a "World Cultures" course in high school that had different religions being taught about. We also had a Christian Fellowship Club that met every wednesday morning before school and every other wednesday during club periods. You had to take World Cultures to learn about the differences - so you're not looking at things half-a$$ed. The club was different. That was like a church service led by students in the middle of school. It was an elective. I duno. I think as long as you aren't forcing someone to take a class about a particular religion it's a great idea to have it as an option. How long do you think it's going to take before someone decides this class is somehow infringing on someones constitutional rights? My school had a lot of electives too (Lot's of sports, computer classes, and the arts...I'm not listing everything I took, it would take too long..LOL)

[WELLAGEDEMT]

I have mixed feelings about prayer in school. On one hand, if it were free will and spontaneous and not to make someones agenda complete, I could be convinced. On the other hand, I feel that any school is setting themselves up for a lawsuit by someone who has an opposing agenda. McCaldwell asked about Sunday school, I agree that is the place to teach religion and history of the church. If someone has questions about other religions/beliefs, all they have to do is look it up on the net or ask someone of that faith/belief. Just my opinion!

[btroutm]

Personally, I could care less if it is an elective. The Bible is a tremendously important piece of literature and it should be included at some point in a well-rounded educational curriculum. Teaching students to critically read and interpret texts such as the Bible is important. Furthermore, it is not a promotion of a specific religion. In my opinion, the school board made a good decision.

As far as those "teen living" or "home ec" or "whatever you want to call them" classes, I am sad to see those become less popular. Nate, you're absolutely right - the things they teach should be taught by parents. Unfortunately, there are plenty of children whose parents aren't doing their jobs, failing to teach their children how to survive in the real world. These classes exist to make sure everybody has at least some basic knowledge (afterall, you never know when you might need to sew that button back on or make a batch of snicker-doodles ;) )

[btroutm]

As far as school prayer goes, I am against it in public schools. Time dedicated to prayer is promotion of religion. However, I would have no problems with two minutes of "a quiet time of reflection." Students can use that time for silent prayer, meditation, or even last minute studying if they so choose.

[celestialdaisy]

The problem with the home ec classes (at least around here) is that the kids get put into groups. When we were cooking, I always ended up doing everything other than washing dishes and getting ingrediants out. When we did shop class, the guys took care of most things. It was sexually segregated by choice of the students who were working for a group grade. The only classes you had to do by yourself were child development and sewing, and I'm sorry to say, us girls got the short end of the stick there too. We didn't want to wait on everyone else to get done so we gave some extra help.

[Nate]

As far as school prayer goes, I am against it in public schools. Time dedicated to prayer is promotion of religion. However, I would have no problems with two minutes of "a quiet time of reflection." Students can use that time for silent prayer, meditation, or even last minute studying if they so choose.

This would be best.

[celestialdaisy]

As far as school prayer goes, I am against it in public schools. Time dedicated to prayer is promotion of religion. However, I would have no problems with two minutes of "a quiet time of reflection." Students can use that time for silent prayer, meditation, or even last minute studying if they so choose.
That's true, but it's hard to explain away a muslim facing mecca for prayer as reflecting. That's why there needs to be an understanding of the religions taught.

[Nate]

I was never taught each religion, but while covering different cultures of the world we covered the different beliefs of each culture. (Without diving to far into their religous beliefs.) Sociology would actually help these students out once they get to college.

I am all for tolerating everyone's religion, but lets face it, America is a Christian based country.

[celestialdaisy]

I'm not debating that fact in any way. I'm just saying that people have problems with things they don't understand. (i.e. people eho are different or religions they don't know about). Personally I think the class is a great idea as long as it's not pressuring a student to belive a certain thing or worship a certain way. (Getting back to the original subject again).

[Nate]

There is only one way to believe, and that is my way! :hehe: :lol: :rotflmao: :)

[celestialdaisy]

I give up... :flame: :lol:

[EMSsquirrel]

This is turning into one of them private chatline things again...

Just don't forget who might be lurking around the corner...

Muahahahahahaha! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

- Greg

[Nate]

This is turning into one of them private chatline things again...

Just don't forget who might be lurking around the corner...

Muahahahahahaha! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

- Greg

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Ever seen your entire screen vomit? :rotflmao:

Back on topic. So would the Bible become a required text book and can you actually use tax dollars to buy them?

[Vorick]

oh gods, don't get me started on this one...

[WELLAGEDEMT]

My grandson says he prays everyday in school. Things like: "Lord! Give me an A in math or science". Or Maybe it's, "Lord! dont' let me get my butt kicked." He says they need prayer to get thru the day. Something is going to happen and he hopes someone is listening!!!!:(

[celestialdaisy]

I think it's sad that kids don't feel safe going to school today. You're only going to learn so much if you have to look back over your shoulder to make sure you're gonna make it through the day.

[SteelMaiden]

There have been some pretty good thoughts pointed out here, I've got a couple of observations. First the title of the thread is Prayer in Schools, but the class being offered is not a prayer class, it is a Bible class. This kinda brings to mind American Literature, English Literature etc. Why not a class that studies the books of the Bible (or maybe next term the Koran)? You can study the Bible, and there are even some really great life principles in it. That does not mean that you have to pray.

Yes, there is Sunday school, but that is a religion class, not a literature class. I really cannot see where a class on the Bible, thought out and done well, couldn't be a great learning experience for kids who are inclined to the literary arts, as well as those who tend toward the theological side. You know, there have been many historical findings that have leant credence to many of the stories told in the Bible, so why not put that historical/literary material to use in teaching? Why does everything have to be that we crawled out of the primordial ooze by accident?

We should be allowing, encouraging, yes maybe even demanding, our youth to view subjects from all sides. If they don't get interested in looking at varying viewpoints now, who will be the explorers, the researchers, the risk takers of the future? Should we all be content to say "From the ooze came I, and I shall remain here on the couch watching mindless reality TV until I return to my original state in the ooze."?:confused:

[Vorick]

Well, I'm gonna shoot myself for this later, but I'm gonna throw a little bit of controversy into an already controversial thread... until they allow the positive study of witchcraft into public schools, I won't agree with the study of Christianity or any other religion in schools.

[btroutm]

Well, I'm gonna shoot myself for this later, but I'm gonna throw a little bit of controversy into an already controversial thread... until they allow the positive study of witchcraft into public schools, I won't agree with the study of Christianity or any other religion in schools.You're absolutely right...A well-balanced survey course on world religions should briefly discuss "witchcraft"-type religions...and fortunately, many courses are well-balanced and do discuss them. However, they certainly should not be given as much weight in the curriculum as the world religions because they're not nearly as popular and they have had much less impact on society (Yes, they have had some impact - we all remember hearing about witch trials and so forth - but it's nothing compared to Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.). Just my $.02.

In reference to your "positive study" remark...the study, just as with the study of any religion in a public school, should be objective and NOT positive or negative.

[swanny]

Well, I'm gonna shoot myself for this later, but I'm gonna throw a little bit of controversy into an already controversial thread... until they allow the positive study of witchcraft into public schools, I won't agree with the study of Christianity or any other religion in schools.

I'm afraid that I'm old enough that I can remember reciting the protestant version of the Lord's Prayer every morning in elementary school, up through the fourth grade. Even at that, my personal beliefs are best described as Native-influenced Diest in nature, so I have to agree with Vorick on this point.

If you'll read James Madison's journals kept during the debates of the Federal Convention of 1787 (more commonly known as the "Constitutional Convention") you'll find very little reference to religion, even though the debates were held during the period known as the "Great Awakening", a period of intense religious fervor throughout the English-speaking world. Although only about a half-dozen or so of the delegates can be identified as "Diests", Diest philosophies seem to have prevailed during the deliberations.

(Madison's journals are available on-line at http://www.constitution.org/dfc/dfc_0000.htm

It would appear that the founders recognized early on that religion is such a devisive issue that in order to get beyond it the only option was to form a purely secular State. It wasn't until the Bill of Rights were written that religion was addressed at all by the Government, and of course that was in the form of the exclusionary clause of the First Amendment.

I think it should be noted that current interpretation of the exclusionary cluase does not ban prayer in the schools. Student instigated prayer is perfectly legal, but prayers instigated by adults (usually adults with their own agenda) is illegal, as it represents government officials promoting the establishment of their own religions.

Just as the founders recognized that promoting a specific religion would be so devisive as to cause the new Nation to be rendered apart, I think it's time we adults recognized the same fact. Religion should be taught in the home and church, but not in any facet of government.

The corrolary of "Freedom of religion" is indeed "Freedom from religion.

Swanny

[Vorick]

::bows to Swanny:: well said

[iamwba]

Like most of the posters so far, I agree that as long as it's an elective and as long as they're not saying that the kids have to believe the religious side of what's taught, it's a good thing. (This is to say, the kids have to understand that Mesopotamia was between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, but they are not required to believe that Lot's wife literally became a pillar of salt... )
(Hmmmmm. Would that make her the first Abnormal Saline? :hehe: Sorry about that)
In this context, I believe the outcry of "That's religion! You can't teach that in a public school!" is invalid. No one claims it's forbidden to teach factual elements of biology in church, and that happens on a regular basis (Eve being told that the bearing of children would forever be painful, Adam having to work the land to grow food, and let's not forget ALL of those begats throughout the various stories) The point (expanding on what's already been stated) is that one can no more fully learn history and literature without the understanding of what shaped the thinking of those who lived it than one can fully learn religion without knowing the basic biological facts. (It's not a miracle that Lazarus was raised from the dead nor that Jesus' tomb was empty unless you know that death is permanent and you can't just hit "reset" to start over.)
Seriously, I can see the points about the teaching of non-Christian religions and about our tax dollars being used to buy Bibles; For the former, as long as they're teaching it as literature rather than history... Dickens and Shakespere are not taught as being historically factual. As to the latter, perhaps the school district can get in touch with the Gideons and have the "textbooks" donated?
It's up to the parents and the church to teach their own beliefs and up to the student to make up his/her own mind as to what he/she believes. If the course is taught properly, the school will find itself (as will the instructor) at odds with the church, as the church's job is to teach dogma (this is the Truth) and the school's job is to teach the student to think for him/herself.

I have to wonder if the curriculum will include the facts of the Bible's revisions throughout history... They don't call it the King James Version as an titular honor to King James, after all.

If nothing else... watching it in the news will be interesting.