View Full Version : Schiavo....
firechic
03-27-2005, 02:01
I've noticed that there hasn't been much traffic on this board recently and a lot has been happening lately.
I'm surprised that no one has posted anything on the latest controversy regarding the situation with Terri Schiavo.
Any thoughts?
(Just trying to get the board going again....)
mcaldwell
03-27-2005, 02:58
I put my two cents in over at FH. I think the politicians should keep thier noses out of a person's right to a dignified death. From what I know about this case, the doctors are in support of the removal of the tube, and the husband (who ultimately has the authority) is in support of it, so the rest of the state, country, and world should keep thier opinions to themselves.
I can understand the families difficulty in letting go, but if there was any real hope for her, the Doctors would not be allowing this to happen.
At the end of the day, this should serve to remind us to ensure our families know our wishes regarding artificial life support, organ donation, and other sensitive matters that can arise at any time.
I myself am tired of hearing about it and feel we should of never heard about it in the first place. It makes me feel ill to constantly hear this crap repeatedly on the news. This is the families business, not mine.
This is why I NEVER watch the news because THIS kind of crap is supposedly news and repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.............................................. ..................................
Smurfe
I, also, am tired of hearing it on the news. If her medical team is okay with it, if her husband is okay with it, and if the first set of courts is okay with it then everyone should butt out.
I hate that this has been made into a political game and people are using her as a pawn to get political points. What a disaster.
It isn't our right as a nation to get involved in these types of cases. Personally.
This is why living wills are important.
EMSsquirrel
03-27-2005, 17:47
Everyone constantly talks about what Terri wants, to live or to die. Nobody can know for sure, unfortunately. Everyone also talks about denying her "food and water" being cruel and inhumane. Well, I think shoving a camera in a sick woman's face and making her a spectacle for the entire nation to see is cruel and inhumane. I think turning this poor woman into a means to further a political agenda is cruel and inhumane. I think America demonizing her husband for wanting to let her die, or demonizing her parents for wanting to keep her alive, is cruel and inhumane. And I don't think any of these things are what Terri would have wanted.
In this era of reality television, we've got the best thing yet. The real life or death strugle of a real woman. Every night, we sit enthralled by the political twists and turns, the mudslinging, the protests and arrests.
America, give it a rest. Whether this woman lives or dies is only of concern to her, her husband, and her parents. If we keep allowing Congress, the President, religious leaders, and the general public to influence a matter, we're dooming ourselves to non-stop idiocy in the future. I can see it now. A two hour special on my next prostate exam, a toll-free telephone voting number for America to voice their opinions on what caused my mystery rash, Congress voting yea or nay on whether or not my grandfather should get chemotheraphy for his cancer.
Give me a break.
- Greg
hageremtp
03-28-2005, 08:34
Let her go.
Whether we like it or not, this is how laws are created/changed sometimes. And anytime it involves a possible violation of someone's civil rights, you're going to get all this rallying behavior.
All of this bring to mind the Karen Ann Quinlan case and the Sunny von Bulow saga. Quinlan was on a respirator, doctors refusing to remove her from it, her family finally won, had the respirator removed and she lingered for several years without it before she died... Sunny von Bulow is NOT on a respirator, she is in a nursing home somewhere now with her children caring for her and paying her medical bills while her "husband" was freed of attempted murder charges thanks to Alan Dershowitz and a handful of his Harvard law students. It appears that Schiavo is not near as bad off as von Bulow.
It seems to me that our government, whether it is state or national, has a long way to go on this subject. And while this situation goes on everywhere, once in a while you get a case that will surface and be given national attention.
You can't depend on everyone in the U.S. to have a living will, so the laws need to be in place to protect such rights.
I don't like her husband.
Anyway, I know they had a settlement from somewhere, but how they got one I don't understand. I thought it was heart failure due to low K+ levels because she had an eating disorder.
1. I wonder if in anyway, shape, or form if us as tax payers or insurance payers have had to shell out any kind of money for this. (Besides court costs.)
2. If we have, I think the husband and family should have to pay some of it back, or donate it to research of some kind. I don't think it is fair that someone was allowed to live for 14 years because of what they did to themselves, while we force people to take their kids off of vents in Houston because they ran out of insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, or personal money.
3. This is going to teach a lot of people to make sure they have their living wills in order. This is also going to show just how much of a mess it can become.
4. I think that Bush (both of them) should have stayed out of this. I don't think that this should have ever gone to the Flordia Supreme Court, and I don't think that the media should have given this family all of this attention.
5. I still think the husband is scum. Eight years he stuck by her, I'll give him that. Than he runs off and has two kids out of wedlock while still married to a woman? He should have divorced her, started his second family, and left the "powers" to her parents since it is clear he had other things going on. Granted he can still love her, but what was he going to do if she magically woke up, leave this other woman and two kids to come backto her?
6. This is the reason why I don't comment on these things that often. There are to many factors that play into things. I just don't think that I (if I become a doctor) could ever "push" or "support" someone being kept alive for fourteen years. Sometimes you just have to say goodbye and let God take someone to heaven.
EMSsquirrel
03-28-2005, 09:54
You can't depend on everyone in the U.S. to have a living will, so the laws need to be in place to protect such rights.
No doubt, but is now really the time to hash all that out, in the heat of the moment, with emotions and tensions running as high as they are? (Not disagreeing, per se, just trying to fuel discussion.)
- Greg
WELLAGEDEMT
03-28-2005, 15:56
Tongue in cheek!!! I feel that the longer she gets the media support, the longer we will have gossip fodder. I wasn't going to comment but, it won't go away. Let her die in peace, probably not possible because all the media and Shaivo fans won't let it. Government screwed this one and now back off and let the family fight it out. We are making judgements about family members and family matters and if it weren't for the media we wouldn't have anything to base our judgements on except backyard gossip. A lot of which is being discussed by the news "makers"............
WELLAGEDEMT
03-29-2005, 11:20
I wouldn't let any doubt creep into the care aspect of how I would treat a patient. My thoughts would be for the patient and how to get that patient from point A to point B alive. Just my opinion now, When you start thinking about quality of a patients life you will lessen the quality of patient care. Again just my opinion, we are not the ones to judge to outcome, but we are the ones that could affect that outcome. Think about it!
Baker3634
03-29-2005, 16:07
I am also tired of hearing about this... If the poor gal really did request no extraordinary measures, and her husband and doctors are for it... then let her rest in peace and stop fighting over her... This just goes to show the controversies going on with in our daily lives when there's more important things that need addressing!
IMABASICEMT
03-29-2005, 19:56
I'm tired of the whole thing myself. I don't think much of the husband either, something just smells really rotten there and things don't really add up. Not only did he move on with his life with another woman but the family had reason to believe that he was having an affair with this woman at the time Terri arrested.
I see valid points on both sides. What bothers me is that no one really knows what Terri's wishes really were and I'm really rather uncomfortable with the idea of removing feeding tubes and starving someone to death. It's troubling for me.
:(
I had a similar situation in my own family. My one cousin became completely disabled from MS. His wife was purposely overmedicating him so he stayed basically sleeping all the time. He couldn't talk so he couldn't tell anyone. My aunt suspected what was going on and she and my uncle just flat threw the DIL out. They didn't give her any options but to get out. So I don't quite understand why Terri's parents haven't done something similar. With some of the mud they have slung at Michael I would think there would have been some way for them to force an issue or two. :confused:
I would hate to think that he was cheating on her (no offense ladies) because she was very pretty. I know that men also cheat on good looking women while us homely bastards can't even get the ugly ones. :D :p :beer:
Thought this forum needed a more of an upbeat atmosphere. ;)
Wait, she was pretty? I was leaning more towards homely myself.
I would hate to think that he was cheating on her (no offense ladies) because she was very pretty. I know that men also cheat on good looking women while us homely bastards can't even get the ugly ones. :D :p :beer:
Thought this forum needed a more of an upbeat atmosphere. ;)
That reminds me of the best bumper sticker I ever saw:
"No matter how good she looks, someone is still tired of her $h**"
Smurfe :beer:
Nate, if you would have seen some of her before pics, I'm sure you would agree. Or maybe not...depends on what side your battin'. :o :) :rotflmao:
j/k, of course....chiiiiiiiillllllllllllllllllllllllllllll :hehe:
I have heard that the last time Terri Schiavo was evaluated, she was at the level of a 6 month old. Well, a six month old feels pain and starving someone to death has got to be quite painful, I am sure. I think it is inhumane. I can not believe society today would even consider starving a person to their death. Well, all I can say is no purgatory for her, she is going straight to Heaven when she moves on to the next life... and for the person who made the decision to starve her, they will have to answer for their sins.
They arrest idiots in a neighboring Parish for holding chicken fights, and recently I read of someone arrested for cruelty to animals, such as not feeding them and properly caring for them... but the State of Florida will allow a woman to be starved to her death? I am in total shock and in disbelief.
It all goes back to what I said in my earlier post. If you want to change the laws, or create them, this is how you do it.... her parents are pushing hard to change the law. But I am not so sure I could let my husband starve to his death. If he's not breathing on his own and is unconscious, that's one thing... but there are just too many conflicting stories about just how conscious this woman is.
That reminds me of the best bumper sticker I ever saw:
"No matter how good she looks, someone is still tired of her $h**"
Smurfe :beer:
Steven..... :o
EMSsquirrel
03-29-2005, 22:50
Steven..... :o
Rethinking that previous quote of yours? :D :D :D :D :D
But I am not so sure I could let my husband starve to his death.
- Greg
EMSsquirrel
03-29-2005, 22:54
I know that men also cheat on good looking women while us homely bastards can't even get the ugly ones. :D :p :beer:
Try dating a blind chick. They don't care about looks! :D :D :D
And before anyone smacks the heck outta me, that's the voice of experience talking. And it's also true that their other senses ARE heightened... Ahem.
- Greg
DaSharkie
03-30-2005, 07:25
I have heard that the last time Terri Schiavo was evaluated, she was at the level of a 6 month old. Well, a six month old feels pain and starving someone to death has got to be quite painful, I am sure. I think it is inhumane. I can not believe society today would even consider starving a person to their death. Well, all I can say is no purgatory for her, she is going straight to Heaven when she moves on to the next life... and for the person who made the decision to starve her, they will have to answer for their sins.
They arrest idiots in a neighboring Parish for holding chicken fights, and recently I read of someone arrested for cruelty to animals, such as not feeding them and properly caring for them... but the State of Florida will allow a woman to be starved to her death? I am in total shock and in disbelief.
It all goes back to what I said in my earlier post. If you want to change the laws, or create them, this is how you do it.... her parents are pushing hard to change the law. But I am not so sure I could let my husband starve to his death. If he's not breathing on his own and is unconscious, that's one thing... but there are just too many conflicting stories about just how conscious this woman is.
Remember, as far as the law and medicine are concerned, a feeding tube and the concoction that is placed through it(TPN) are considered a medication.
My living will states that I do not want TPN. Personally, stopping artificial ventilation is the same thing as stopping feeding. One only takes longer.
This is a decision that should have involved no one but the two families and the judges that must hear the case. I think that her parents and their family wanted to make it a bit more widely known to push their cause, but it is no one's business but theirs.
WELLAGEDEMT
03-30-2005, 10:32
Brad: I think your problem goes a lot deeper than skin or looks!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rotflmao: Kinda like fishing, you have to have the right equipment to land the good ones. Like lures, how they move and look and smell. :rotflmao: A lot depends on the presentation, too!!! If you're fishing for bullheads, you don't have to use too much skill, on the other hand, if you are fishing for marlin, you are going to have to have the right stuff and know how to work it!!!!:rotflmao:
Oh, Raymond...I missed ya....where have you been...you've been AWOL for a while.....
Wow, I think this thread gets the award for the most off topic thread of the year!
How did we go from talking about a woman who is about to pass, to "fishing" for women? ;)
In my few short years of dating, I've learned that most "supre fine" women aren't worth the trouble. I'd rather have a "normal" girl that was really sweet, caring, friendly, and fun to be around than some "hottie" that was stuck up.
Wow, I'm getting old. I just said I'd want the normal girl over the hottie. Damn youthful hormones, come back! I'm not done with you! Ahhhh!
On a serious note, I've talked this over with my current girlfriend, family, and friends. If something should happen to me, donate me to help others. Don't keep me alive when I won't know it.
WELLAGEDEMT
03-30-2005, 15:30
Nate, Actually we aren't off track, it was just a response for Brad. This whole Shaivo thing is a travesty of humanity and the government, in it's infinite wisdom, decided to stick its' nose where it didn't belong. The media continues to prolong the agony by sensationalizing every move. It's time to stop and get back to some real news. If I were to be in that situation, I would not wish to have my life prolonged, just let me die with dignity and privacy. The only good thing to come out of this whole mess, is that a focus was put on "living wills" and their importance.
Now about those "hormones", You have to treat them gently because they DO NOT last forever. Yes, when you are older, you will still enjoy the company of a young beautiful woman, but the charge is very short lived and there are only a handfull of remedies for this dilema------- ie:Viagra, etc :lol:
Brad--
Actually I haven't been AWOL, but I've had less time to play. I notice that you have been a little busy yourself. We'll have to get together soon and discuss the director situation. Stay safe!!!
That is true, at least one good thing has come of this mess and that is that more people will be taking action in their life and getting living wills and other advanced orders hased out.
However; I too would rather die with dignity than be kept alive. I would come back to life and kick some major butt if I found out I was on TV as a "side show" for the world to stare at.
Shame on who ever released those videos!
totalpatrol
03-30-2005, 16:57
This whole ordeal reminds me of one of my frequent sayings, and that is that death isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person! I've always believed that, and this is one case that i believe it becomes relevant.
On a serious note, I've talked this over with my current girlfriend, family, and friends. If something should happen to me, donate me to help others. Don't keep me alive when I won't know it.
Does this mean we could start now?? :beer: :rotflmao:
EMSsquirrel
03-31-2005, 11:28
The Associated Press
Originally published March 31, 2005, 10:13 AM EST
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. -- Terri Schiavo, the severely brain-damaged woman whose 15 years connected to a feeding tube sparked an epic legal battle that went all the way to the White House and Congress, died today, 13 days after the tube was removed, her husband's attorney said. She was 41.
Schiavo died at the Pinellas Park hospice where she lay for years while her husband and her parents fought over her fate in the nation's longest, most bitter right-to-die dispute.
Her death was confirmed to The Associated Press by Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, and announced to reporters outside her hospice by a family adviser.
Brother Paul O'Donnell, an adviser to Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, said the parents and their two other children "were denied access at the moment of her death. They've been requesting, as you know, for the last hour to try to be in there and they were denied access by Michael Schiavo. They are in there now, praying at her bedside."
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-schiavo0331,1,1294790.story?coll=bal-home-headlines
May she finally rest in peace.
- Greg
May she finally rest in peace.
Nope, not yet, she still has to have her body carved up. Then maybe she can rest in piece....
I didn't think they were going to do that.
EMSsquirrel
03-31-2005, 14:18
Nope, not yet, she still has to have her body carved up. Then maybe she can rest in piece....
... You're kidding, right? We really need to do an autopsy to know why she died? Good grief.
- Greg
Yep, they took the body away this morning for the autopsy to prove that she was really in a vegitative state and that she was in that condition because of a chemical imbalance and not because her husband abused her.
:o A break through in medicine, calling someone fat and other names leads to veg state!
IMABASICEMT
03-31-2005, 16:06
No autopsy is going to show the kind of abuse he dished out! :flame: :mad:
I'm glad they are doing one, although the outcome won't change my mind on death by starvation.
I don't understand how they expect to find signs of abuse from this. I mean, I know he verbally did it, but those don't show up. Also he might have hit her (I don't know if he did/didn't) but the contusions would have healed by now.
Are they looking for something that he might have injected in her? If so, it would have worked its way out of her system by now.
IMABASICEMT
03-31-2005, 17:11
From the articles that I have read, the autopsy is to determine just what state her brain was in and also to show that her arrest was from the deficiency and not from anything he had done to her. But I agree, such evidence would probably be long gone.
mcaldwell
03-31-2005, 20:12
I don't understand how they expect to find signs of abuse from this. I mean, I know he verbally did it, but those don't show up. Also he might have hit her (I don't know if he did/didn't) but the contusions would have healed by now.
You can tell by examing for histories of fractures, or abnormal bone development caused by previous injuries. It is done with kids who are victims of child abuse too.
The other side of the coin, is to find a medical reason for the condition, which would help exonerate him of those accusations.
I am in shock that her "husband" won't allow her parents to take part in any type of funeral. If he is going to cremate her, they should split her ashes between the two families. As a parent, I find this absolutely impossible to comprehend. I can not imagine giving life to a child, loving and nurturing that life, and being denied the right to grieve and take part in her burial.
Of course the real victim here is Terri Schiavo. And she is at peace now, in mind, body and spirit, with the Lord. May God truly bless her and give her eternal peace.
I am in shock that her "husband" won't allow her parents to take part in any type of funeral. If he is going to cremate her, they should split her ashes between the two families. As a parent, I find this absolutely impossible to comprehend. I can not imagine giving life to a child, loving and nurturing that life, and being denied the right to grieve and take part in her burial.
I agree 100%. The man has a new life, a new woman, new children, why can't he just let these people who lost their daughter against their will have a funeral to celebrate her life and say goodbye to her?
It isn't his wife anymore, it is their daughter IMO.
IMABASICEMT
04-01-2005, 12:47
It's all about control, not Terri. :bang:
Michael could have chosen to do things differently here and there wouldn't be the squabbling there is, but he didn't. It's control. He has control, he knows it and he is playing it. :(
SteelMaiden
04-01-2005, 14:08
It's all about control, not Terri. :bang:
Michael could have chosen to do things differently here and there wouldn't be the squabbling there is, but he didn't. It's control. He has control, he knows it and he is playing it. :(
I think that you have it figured out. I was really going to stay out of this one, but I cannot. Too many things have been reported, and they all stink. This man told his wife that if she ever "got fat again" he'd leave her. He wins a settlement, but the hospice provides Terri's stay for free because she's considered indigent. He won't divorce her, yet goes out and moves another woman into her home and has children, yet tries to make it seem like he is concerned about her well-being. He will not allow her to be buried in Fla, but insists on cremation and an "undisclosed buriel" site. There's something rotten in Denmark.
I do not necessarily think she was physically abused, but from the things that are coming out, it sure sounds possible that there was emotional abuse going on. And, now that she is gone, he is continuing to abuse her family. If they feel so strongly against cremation, what is it to him to allow her an intact buriel? Some people just cannot face cremations, what is wrong with giving in on a seemingly minor point to allow someone else's emotional well being?
I know I should focus on how this case will effect EMS, but as far as I am concerned, it will not make one bit of difference on how I treat patients. We just had an OD, non-responsive, pupils fixed and dilated, yet the person had a pulse, heart rhythm and was breathing (although not quality breaths) We bagged him all the way in, just as though he would wake up any moment and be fine. We all knew that he wouldn't make it, but it was not our job to say, oh well. Our job was to treat him as though he would pull through. We would have de-fibbed, if the situation arose. Unless you hand me a DNR, you'll be treated, within our scope and protocol.
Baker3634
04-01-2005, 16:25
May Terri rest in peace, and the Lord continue to look over here parents and immediate family during their times of grief and struggle.
God Bless
SteelMaiden
06-17-2005, 13:51
So.....the latest news is that Jeb is going to have another DA investigate the original 9-1-1 call.
1) don't politicians realize how STUPID they look for meddling in things they have no reason to?
2) what part of the detailed autopsy did the gov of FL not understand?
3) is anyone else tired of Jacko, Schiavo, and Go-Go Wilbanks?
Good grief! There may have been things done by Michael Schiavo that I did not agree with as to funeral arrangements, living arrangements, etc., but the poor woman is dead, and really, for all practical purposes, has been dead for 15 years other than the most primitive body functions. What possible "good" can come out of reopening the original emergency call?
Anybody here from Florida? Does this decision add or detract from your support of Jeb Bush? I know that if he were from my state, I would now begin to actively compaign against him. Any politician that would stoop so low to get this issue back into the newspaper should be brought up on criminal charges himself. JMHO:soapbox:
Unfortunately, there has been and continue to be a lot of people involved in this tragic situation who really shouldn't be involved. I'm not going to impose my values or mores on others, nor engage in speculation. What I do know, is that my wife and I have discussed our wishes and we each know what the others wants done if we were to find ourselves in a similar predicament.
Neither our parents, nor children know the details of these conversations or our personal views. I'm sure they would be shocked to hear our assessment and plans, but its not for them to know. I hope the Shiavo's had these conversations and I take Mr Shiavo statements regarding their (Mike and Terri) discussion of this topic at face value.
The events to which we've borne witness have turned a tragic situation into a bitter contest that has shattered an already estranged family. I know, I would want my wife to continue to live with the living and make a new life for herself while ensuring my wishes are honored. I wish there was a way to bring the two families together so they both can mourn their loss, but I know the reality of the tribulations they've endured have shattered any utopian dreams I may harbor.
In keeping with the best lyrics of the 60's - Let them be!
WELLAGEDEMT
06-18-2005, 14:32
A lot of the previous posts are representative of why this "Schiavo story" retains it's life. This was a "personal" situation that made the "public" news and in my humble opinion, had no business being aired. The only reason it still "lives" is because a lot of "do-gooders" took offense at how the situation was being handled and formed opinions about who was right and who was wrong. The media has kept this item in the forefront because of that very reason. IT SELLS!! If everyone would choose not to listen or respond (with their opinions) this situation could possibly get back to being a "personal" situation and back into the family instead of the "public". :soapbox: :bang:
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